Meike Reichle is a Debian developer since 2008 but has been involved for longer than that, in particular in Debian Women. She s a great speaker and shared her experience in a
Debconf talk.
She s also part of the Debian publicity team and managed the live coverage of the last release on identi.ca. Enough introduction, learn more about her by reading the interview. My questions are in bold, the rest is by Meike.
Who are you?
My name is Meike Reichle, I am a studied information scientist and work
as a project manager at Pengutronix, an embedded Linux company probably
best known for their ARM kernel work. I live in Germany, more exactly in
Lower Saxony, but I was originally born and raised in Swabia. Although I
moved here ten years ago I still have a rather strong Swabian cultural
identity. (Among other things I pride myself on having introduced a
number of fellow DDs to the true promise that are real hand-made Sp tzle
) I am married to Alexander Reichle-Schmehl, we ll have our third
wedding anniversary this summer. Apart from Debian most of my spare time
is used for all kinds of crafts and DIY activities. Making things with my
hands always gives me a great sense of accomplishment.
My Free software history is summed up pretty quickly. Like most women of my
age I wasn t introduced to computers until well into my teens. I didn t
have a computer of my own until I started studying at the university in
2001. From there on things developed rather quickly: Working on the
University s Unix terminals got me hooked on *nixes, so I got me one of
those Linuxes everyone talked about. I tried a couple of different
distributions, ended up with Debian around 2004, started contributing in
2005, and finally became a full DD what a nice coincidence! exactly
this day (Apr 18th) three years ago.
You re part of Debian Women. How is the project going? I have the feeling that the number of women involved in Debian has not significantly increased.
The amount of women active within Debian is a tricky thing to judge.
Here s a quick example why:
When the DPL was elected in 2004 there were 911 Debian Developers
eligible to vote, 4 of them were female. Shortly after, during DebConf4,
debian-women was founded. When the current DPL was reelected last month,
there were again 911 Debian Developers eligible to vote, but this time 13
of them were women.
You can look at these numbers and say The number of female DDs has more
than tripled, what a success! Or you can pull out your calculator and it
will tell you that in terms of ratio this puts us from a measly 0.4% to
an only slightly less measly 1.4% ratio of female DDs. This still is pardon my language a bloody shame, but sadly also pretty close to the
average ratio of women in Free Software.
So, while I do think that the debian-women project did already have a
significant impact on the Debian project as a whole, I don t think it has
achieved its goals yet. Not for a long time.
There s still a lot to be done but unfortunately the debian-women project
has somewhat run out of steam at the moment. The seven years of its
existence divide quite equally into the first half, which was very active
and saw great results, and the second half, which was very slow and much
more passive. In my impression debian-women is currently undergoing a
rather bumpy generational change. On the one hand a lot of the original
members, including myself, have reduced their involvement. Speaking for
myself this is caused by shift of interests as much as general weariness.
On the other hand there are only very few women following up. This
development is also reflected quite harshly in DD numbers: If I don t
misjudge any first names (and I desperately hope I do!) for the last
three years not a single woman has joined Debian as a developer! After
the great start debian-women has had, this is a very painful thing to
see!
That said, things don t look all bad. There is a number of women
maintaining packages without being DDs and there s also at least one
woman currently in NM, so there s hope this standstill won t last very
much longer. But still, the fact remains that debian-women is suffering
from a rather serious recruitment problem and I hope that this interview
might actually help to spur some new or not yet active members into
action. The aim of debian-women is far from achieved and now that its
initial members are receding its time for new members to step up and take
initiative.
What should Debian do to be more attractive to women ? I think the general atmosphere has improved, we re less tolerant with rude behaviour, the usual tone on mailing lists has improved. Yet it doesn t seem to be enough.
If there was a female DD for every time I answered that question
First of all, I agree, Debian as a community has improved tremendously!
Our general tone is much more friendly and cooperative and there is now a
much better awareness of the impression we give to outsiders and
newcomers.
Now on to the difficult part: The question what should be done to get
more women into Free Software has been around almost as long as Free
Software exists, and it has been answered very well by a lot of people:
Twenty years ago Ellen Spertus wrote
Why are There so Few Female Computer Scientists? and most of it
still holds true. Almost ten years ago Val Henson (now Aurora) wrote
HOWTO Encourage Women in Linux and that also is
still pretty accurate. In 2006
Floss Pols undertook extensive
research to find out why there were so few women in Open Source and Free
Software and how that could be changed. They also came up with a very
good set of recommendations. All of these texts highlight different
aspects of that question and all of them have very good points.
I personally have, over the years, arrived at a rather sociological, not
to say holistic point of view. In fact I answered the exact same question
a few days ago, and the answer I gave then was this: After ~10 years of
women in tech advocacy I d say the ultimate and final measure to get more
women into Free Software is by finally achieving a truly equal society
and at the same time dramatically improving child care support in almost
any country. I ve come to the conclusion that what really holds women
back in practice is not so much a lack of skill or interest but a simple
lack of opportunity. For most of us Free Software is what we do in our
spare time and that s something that women, even today, have considerably
less of than men. Even in couples where both partners work full-time it
is still mostly the woman who does the majority of the housework and
child care duties. In most cultures men have a perceived right to their
leisure time that does not to the same degree exist for women.
That is one major reason, the other is instilled modesty, which has kind
of become my personal arch-enemy by now. I ve talked to so many girls and
women at all sorts of events about why they won t take up Computer
Science studies or join a Free Software project and the answer I hear
most often is that they do not consider themselves good enough in one
or another aspect. Sometimes they will doubt their technical skills,
sometimes their language skills, sometimes their stamina. Needless to say
these girls and women were not any less qualified than the people already
active in Free Software.
So, yes, in the short and medium term making Debian a more welcoming and
friendly place is the way to go. As many others pointed out already this
will not only benefit prospective contributors but the community as a
whole: those new to it as well as those who ve been in it for a long
time. In the long term however what we need is empowerment! Women who are
just as confident about their skills as men and are not discouraged by
uncooperative environments. This is of course something that is
culturally deep-rooted and can only happen in a very large time frame.
So, for the moment the way to go in my view is accessibility: a
cooperative atmosphere, a code of conduct, comprehensive documentation
not only of technical aspects but also of structures and processes. The
other thing we need to do is to have as many already active women as
possible attend as many Linux/Debian/Free Software/Whatever events as
possible. In my experience it happens quite often that other women see
these women, feel very inspired by them, get to talk to them and then a
few days later show up on some mailing list or IRC channel. From what
I ve seen personal contact still beats any other kind of recruiting
measures.
You re a Debian developer but you re also married with a Debian developer (Alexander Reichle-Schmehl). Did you meet because of Debian? If not, who introduced Debian to the other one?
We did in fact meet because of Debian. More specifically during our booth
shift at the Debian booth at LinuxTag 2005, where I did a talk on the
debian-women project and Alex organised the DebianDay. After that our
relationship developed pretty much along our Debian activities: After our
initial meeting we talked a lot on #debian.de, when Alex went to DebConf5
and I didn t we noticed that we kind of missed each other. The first gift
he ever gave me was a Debconf5 shirt and a box Finnish chocolates (I
still have one of them today.
) Our first secret kiss was at ApacheCon
2005, where we were both staffing the Debian booth (kudos to abe for
pretending not to notice). We then became an official couple at
Berlinux 2005 where we were both staffing the Debian booth and giving
talks on packaging and user motivation. Our first real relationship
stress test was when we both joined the DebConf6 orga team. It was a
stressful time, but we passed it with flying colours! About a year later
we announced our
engagement via planet.debian.org. Our wedding was a
veritable MiniDebConf, one of the best gifts we got was a Debian cookbook
including the favourite recipes of DDs from around the world.
By now we ve both finished university and work full-time jobs, so we
don t do as many talks and attend as many Debian events as we used to.
Instead we now mainly focus on press and publicity work, which is quite
practical to work on as a pair. It s actually rather funny that way,
Alex and I get confused with each other quite often, since we have almost
the same name, often pick up on each other s E-Mail conversations and are
most often quoted by our function rather than by name. Because of we have
kind of merged into this virtual Debian Press Person in the perception of
many of our contacts.
You also have another hat : Debian Press Officer. What is this about? What would you suggest to people who would like get involved in that domain?
Debian press work is mainly about providing an official and coordinated
point of contact to anyone wanting information from or about Debian. The
press team answers all sorts of inquiries (the most popular one is is of
course always the next release date) and makes sure all important events
and developments within Debian receive the attention and recognition they
deserve. Debian is a diverse project where every sort of contributor is
free to voice his or her opinion in any way. We don t have NDAs or
prescribed terminology. That s one of the things I love about Debian but
also something that makes us difficult to handle for conventional media.
They want official statements, in generally understandable terms, at
appointed times. That s what the press team takes care of. Almost all of
the press work is done in the publicity team, which coordinates using
IRC, Mail and SVN. The publicity team also publishes the Debian Project
News, which are very popular among our users and developers. Press work
is also an area of work that offers lots of possibilities for
non-technical contribution.
http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Publicity lists
a number of possibilities for contribution and, like most Debian Teams,
we d be more than grateful to get some more helping hands and happy to
introduce interested newcomers to our work.
What s the biggest problem of Debian?
In my view: Overwork. Debian has thousands of contributors but still a
lot of the main work rests on very few shoulders. We need more
contributors, especially, but not only in the key teams. In order to get
more people we need to do some marketing which is very hard for us, since
we are very proud of our independence and have a strong focus on purely
technical aspects rather than aiming for popularity. However, with the
current amount of Open Source and Free Software projects to join we find
ourselves not only in a contest on technical excellence but also a sort
of popularity contest that is about perception rather than hard facts.
This popularity contest is difficult for Debian and currently costs us
quite a bunch of very capable people.
Do you have wishes for Debian Wheezy?
My answer to that is a non-technical one: I think Debian is currently
very under-appreciated, we do a lot of great work and maybe even more
importantly we do a lot of important work for Software Freedom, sometimes
even at the cost of our above-mentioned popularity. I hope people will
appreciate that more again in the future.
Is there someone in Debian that you admire for their contributions?
Over the years I have made a lot of friends within the Debian community,
some have even become family. That makes it somewhat hard to single out
individual people. I think what I admire most is continuous commitment. I
am very impressed by those among us who have kept up a high level of
commitment over many years and at the same time managed to bring that in
line with a fulfilled personal/family life. That s something that I hope
I ll also be able to achieve in the years to come.
Thank you to Meike for the time spent answering my questions. I hope you enjoyed reading her answers as I did.
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